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hello dr. Rachel here welcome to the

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skeptic Zone episode 18 for februari the

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20th 2009 this week we present a super

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special Ben Goldacre show part 1 is an

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exclusive interview about the Jenny

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Barnett lbc affair and part 2 is the

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continuation of my interview with Ben

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from two weeks ago but first if you

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turned into last week's show you would

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have heard me talk about the

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circumstances surrounding Ben Goldacre

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once again being threatened with legal

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action this followed him posting an

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excerpt from a January seventh broadcast

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of Jenny Barnett's talkback show on LBC

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radio this broadcast has probably become

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best known for Jenny's attack on a colon

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and yasmin an NHS nurse who called in to

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correct some of Jenny's misinformation

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about vaccinations on this week skeptics

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own special we speak to Ben Goldacre to

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get his side of the story and also his

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impressions of the phenomenal response

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from skeptical bloggers and supporters

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hello Ben Goldacre and welcome again to

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the skeptic sign hi hello hey Dee how

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are you is more to the point it's been a

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crazy week for you this week I imagine

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oh no that's all just sort of

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childishness and distractions isn't it

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and but you're right lbc did send me a

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sort of flower threatening legal thing

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which i don't think it's surprising that

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many people have interpreted their

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actions over the past week as an attempt

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to stifle debate on a very irresponsible

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piece of broadcasting by lbc and a

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couple of weeks ago can we get on to the

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contents of that broadcast in a moment

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band but can I start off by asking you a

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little bit about the phenomenal reaction

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that's occurred around the world from

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your supporters and bloggers it's really

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been a Streisand effect as they

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described it this week hasn't it it is

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yeah and I mean do people know what what

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happened or should I explain can you

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start off by telling us how it all

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started because you received this 44

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minute excerpt from Jenny banat lbc

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broadcast from a Raider janu is that how

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you became aware of it that's right yeah

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I mean I only really sort of write about

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stuff that people send in to me and

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actually I got contacted by a nurse

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called called Yasmin who had run into

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this radio show run by somebody called

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Jenny bonaire who's a very well known

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and wealthy TV and radio presenter in

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the UK and she'd Ryan because she'd

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heard Jenna Bonnette saying some really

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very foolishly responsible things about

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the MMR vaccine which as you know in the

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UK is a long-standing effectively hoax

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perpetrated by the media for the past 10

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years and and it's it's the most

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powerful example I think of

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irresponsible science broadcasting and

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in the UK because the media's MMR hoax

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has resulted in quite sort of serious

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public health consequences there was the

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mumps outbreak in 2005 which is arguably

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down to and the drop in NMR use and then

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there's also the exponential rise in

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measles cases which have gone up by at

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least two thousand percent over the past

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seven years that the

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has been running so there was this very

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irresponsible piece of broadcasting and

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yasmin as a nurse who'd run in and tried

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to sort of counter some of the

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foolishness being spouted by Jenny

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Barnett and others and was sort of very

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concerned and said you might be

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interested in this clip so I went to the

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site grabbed a copy excerpted just the

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bit that was that was about MMR which

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was about a fully four minutes long and

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when i say i accepted it i mean what i

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actually did was I posted it on Twitter

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saying has anybody got the necessary

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skills to cut down mp3 for me please and

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somebody I have no idea who I can't

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remember his name it's terrible is my

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aunt I hope to thank him properly and

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but somebody just sort of you know

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pinged me back with an email and said

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here it is and I posted it up on my blog

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assuming that this was you know a fairly

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normal and reasonable thing to do and I

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posted up saying you know this is a

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ridiculous clip and here are some of the

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ridiculous things in it and and it's my

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belief that this exemplifies some of the

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worst you know this is this is a good

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illustration of the wider problem of the

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misrepresentation of evidence on MMR in

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the media and it and in fact what I was

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hoping for was because it was so bad I

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mean you have to listen to it really is

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very very bad I believe me believe me

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when I listen to it in some respects I

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mean you have to take pleasure from this

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thickness you know but it wasn't easy it

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wasn't easy it's not easy listening no

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it's not Burt Bacharach um but but the

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the thing that I was hoping for was that

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it would be and it would be a useful

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resource because it felt to me as if it

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this clip genuinely did exemplify almost

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every single one of the canard almost

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every single one of the

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misunderstandings and misrepresentations

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that quacks and irresponsible

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journalists have made about MMR vaccines

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over the past ten years and it felt to

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me like it was almost the sort of you

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know the the document it was that it was

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the paradigm ask use on for the perfect

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illustration it was you know there was

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you know it was everything you need to

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know about how the media have

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misrepresented the evidence on omr with

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such catastrophic and try

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consequence and there was in a bit

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there were maybe sort of I don't know 50

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or 100 responses on the blog and you

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know you can't you can't make people on

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the internet do what you want and you

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wouldn't want to it's you know it's like

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herding cats or making water flow

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downhill you know you sort of throw

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ideas out there and I have to admit like

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a little bit of me a tiny little bit me

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because I don't you know it's not that I

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think people should do what I would like

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them to do but a tiny little bit of me

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sort of felt are you know some of the

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comments here are really good but I was

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really hoping that people would really

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go for it and that we could we could

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sort of you know take analyze this line

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by line and have this perfect thing but

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it I guess it looks like that's going to

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happen and that's not a problem you know

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and maybe I'll find the time myself to

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go through all 44 minutes and the post

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was pretty much dead you know so I got

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this thing from their head of legal and

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it was all right you have to take this

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down it's a copyright infringement words

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I don't even know the meaning of and and

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obviously I did what what literally

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anybody would do which is and I took it

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down because i don't have the personal

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resources to fight alien to fighter a

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case over a gray area in copyright I

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mean that's you know it's ridiculous the

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lbc and global radio are a company

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valued at hundreds of millions of pounds

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global radio bought lbc a couple of

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years ago for 117 million pounds so

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global radio themselves must be worth an

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enormous amount of money and it's all

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very well for them to say well you know

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it's a legal gray area we could argue

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the toss but in reality it's very

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obvious that there's no way I can I can

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argue the toss about this I mean yeah

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then lots of people really quite

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touching actually sort of went you know

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this is a bad thing and can I tell you

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what happened on on this side bin yeah

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yeah I in fact had a copy of of it from

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the your podcast but I hadn't heard it

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yet and Richard Saunders had heard it

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and he said to me that he will he wanted

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to play it to me but he said to me I

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know that after five minutes you're

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going to start screaming me and telling

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me to stop turn it off and that indeed

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is exactly what happened in fact it is

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quite you do have to be sort of

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physically restrained to listen to it

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it's very difficult and we've talked

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about this on our podcast last night and

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I mentioned to people if they are a bit

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sensitive just stupidity they should

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perhaps consider reading the transcript

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which is a bit less painful I disagree

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really i mean i think i think the

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hilariousness of how of how they back of

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how their actions of backfired is when

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it's written down in black and white I

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mean I agreed that you know her

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presentation and voice is obviously

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confrontational and and and hostile and

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infuriating and that's why she's

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employed by the talk radio station

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because she you know confrontational and

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infuriating that's you know that's her

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that's her appeal but actually I think

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when it's written in black and white it

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looks quite a bit worse we decided to

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post it on YouTube I don't know if you

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if you know it's up there but Richard

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put it up on YouTube because that was

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when the you had said help I don't want

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to have it up anymore yeah yeah so we

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stuck it up there and then then after

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that that was when everyone started

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blogging about it and then it eventually

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appeared on Wikileaks did yeah and also

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people started doing some transcripts of

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it and then hosting two different

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sections of the transcript in different

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places and so you know it was a sort of

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it was a very predictable outcome i mean

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i think that surprised me i suppose was

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the story gets worse as as you know and

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as what comes to but you've kind of got

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a wonder whether i get the sense that

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Jenny Barnett and lbc didn't really have

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very good PR advice on this and didn't

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really have very good new media advice

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and actually I think also not really

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very good legal advice because I think

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in an ideal world the advice that you

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get from a lawyer on issues of copyright

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and reputation and defamation and so on

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should also include a consideration of

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the risks and of being perceived as

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being heavy-handed but perhaps we are I

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mean I don't know what the sort of Chile

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chain of reasoning was for OBC I suppose

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I don't really mind except i mean the

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phenomenal insight lessness that they

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have demonstrated synthesis is genuinely

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staggering actually so your blog crushed

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a couple of times because there was

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latest like and yeah going Boing I think

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it got linked on Boing Boing which i

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think is that if boy boy still the

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biggest blog on the internet because it

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is fairly stupid really that you know 44

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minutes of a clip of something that was

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broadcast into our kitchens and cars on

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public

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airwaves you know I mean it's pretty

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natural to assume that if you've if

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there's some audio from that that's made

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up substantially if people from whom

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members of the public ringing in and and

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you know it's a matter of really

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important public discussion and stuff I

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mean I don't know what the law says but

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if the law says that's wrong and I don't

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have the money to find out if it does or

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not if the law says that's wrong then

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the laws is wrong as far as I'm

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concerned but anyway then weirdly

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Stephen Fry and I've seen ya and fries

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equal famous in Australian around yet

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Stephen Fry how he ever did it and he's

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got about a bazillion Twitter followers

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and Festing Stephen probably posted a

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comment on my blog which is like a sort

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of Internet knighthood I really felt

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like I won the internet little bit and

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and that brought in lots of visitors and

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yeah well I mean to say the web site

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crashes bit unfair well no I mean the

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website did crash sure so can you tell

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us something about the early day motion

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that's now going on in become with

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Norman lamb and Evan Harris what's that

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all about yeah well so then exactly

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explain to us what that is been because

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Australians don't know what that means

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can you just give us a brief overview of

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what an early day motion is okay so an

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early day motion isn't like you know

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it's not like an act of parliament it's

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not this sort of amazing big exciting

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thing and but an early day motion is

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basically if there's an MP who and who

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thinks that you know who has something

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important that they think and needs

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attention and perhaps needs a show of

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support from other MPs and and that may

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be a sort of seed for subsequent

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political action and then they can put

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an early day motion down it goes in a

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00:12:07,230 --> 00:12:04,089
Birkin in the lobby or somewhere in

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Parliament and and then MPs can sign it

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00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:09,180
to demonstrate their support and and

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members of the public can contact their

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00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:15,670
MP and ask them to sign it Emily Harris

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but actually the make the proposal i

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think was was officially Norman lamb

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whose the lib dems shadows but shadow

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health secretary or whatever posted that

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up and yeah it's been signed by 28 MP so

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far which isn't bad for an early day

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motion I have to say and it's some and

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00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:32,800
it's been signed by proper people you

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know and Glenda Jackson more cotan what

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is in this early day motion right what

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is it

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they sang MMR vaccine and the media EDM

321
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75 for that this house expresses its

322
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support for the combined MMR vaccine

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notes with concern the re-emergence of

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measles and the loss of life and

325
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long-term health problems which will

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afflicts children as a result of the

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decline in the vaccination rate which

328
00:12:57,960 --> 00:12:55,450
followed dr. Andrew Wakefield's now

329
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discredited research paper suggesting a

330
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link between MMR vaccine and autism

331
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expresses its disappointment that

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ill-informed comments by presenters such

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as Jenny Barnett on her lbc radio show

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will continue to cause unfounded

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anxieties for many parents and are

336
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likely to result in some parents

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choosing not to vaccinate their children

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recognizes the right of jelly barnett as

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a parent to make her own judgment about

340
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vaccinations for her own children but

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implores her and others in the media to

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00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:23,950
act more responsibly when making

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comments in the public domain and

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further expresses its hope that in the

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future reporting on the issue of MMR

346
00:13:36,510 --> 00:13:31,870
will be less sensationalist and more

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evidence-based so that's fantastic it is

348
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:38,529
pretty good isn't it and if you were

349
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:40,690
sort of I mean it's a bit us it's a bit

350
00:13:45,329 --> 00:13:42,880
of a slap down Jenny pon it in lbc is

351
00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:45,339
now an eva thought it was me at that

352
00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:47,110
point I'd have gone all right look you

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00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:49,120
know we're sorry it was foolish let me

354
00:13:53,070 --> 00:13:51,910
just say publicly I'm you know we're

355
00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:53,080
really going to try not to do this again

356
00:13:57,420 --> 00:13:55,839
and we're not going to let Jenny Barnett

357
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:57,430
talk about medical issues until she's

358
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:58,959
bothered to familiarize herself with the

359
00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:01,120
basics of the discipline because we

360
00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:02,860
wouldn't let somebody talk about sport

361
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:03,790
if they didn't know the difference

362
00:14:07,530 --> 00:14:06,250
between cricket and rugby so why do we

363
00:14:09,050 --> 00:14:07,540
have this person talking about medical

364
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:09,060
issues and science when they don't

365
00:14:14,910 --> 00:14:12,880
understand the absolute basics and you

366
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:14,920
might also say look you know here's the

367
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:16,930
clip we're hosting it free to access

368
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:19,930
here you are here it is fine and job

369
00:14:25,860 --> 00:14:22,510
done but instead they just continued to

370
00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:25,870
to inflame and big do things which I

371
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:27,279
think a lot of people again are

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00:14:30,329 --> 00:14:29,050
interpreting as further efforts to

373
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stifle debate and I think they've had

374
00:14:35,310 --> 00:14:32,980
very very bad PR advice again I mean I

375
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:35,320
almost feel sorry for Jenny barling one

376
00:14:39,230 --> 00:14:36,670
of the things that happened in the last

377
00:14:41,790 --> 00:14:39,240
couple of days been was Jenny's agent

378
00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:41,800
came out and said that she's been

379
00:14:47,250 --> 00:14:44,220
receiving abusive emails and abusive

380
00:14:49,050 --> 00:14:47,260
personal attacks on her blog and that

381
00:14:51,630 --> 00:14:49,060
was the reasons why she took off the

382
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comments from people that were writing

383
00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:51,790
on

384
00:14:56,070 --> 00:14:53,230
blog and saying hey we think you might

385
00:15:00,420 --> 00:14:56,080
be misinformed yeah this person who were

386
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:00,430
who were sort of invited to feel sorry

387
00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:03,310
for because she's been upset by by

388
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:05,500
horrible comments I mean firstly they

389
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:07,090
said holy examine listen they weren't I

390
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:08,650
don't think any really very horrible

391
00:15:11,340 --> 00:15:09,730
comments on her blog there were more

392
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:11,350
horrible comments on her blog about me

393
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:15,130
than ever and I think I mean I think I

394
00:15:20,820 --> 00:15:16,720
think everybody has to be very careful

395
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:20,830
in in debates like this and not to sort

396
00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:23,530
of childishly start competing for

397
00:15:27,330 --> 00:15:25,390
victimhood and the sort of role as the

398
00:15:28,650 --> 00:15:27,340
most bullied person you know there are

399
00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:28,660
some idiots on the internet who post

400
00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:30,190
stupid things but that's not a new story

401
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:33,580
you know and yeah but also yeah you're

402
00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:35,920
right i mean there was a there was a an

403
00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:39,160
era of irony and I suppose hypocrisy you

404
00:15:43,050 --> 00:15:40,540
know on the one hand here was somebody

405
00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:43,060
who's saying and I'm being really

406
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:45,580
horribly treated here in bullied but on

407
00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:48,720
the other hand yeah a very wealthy and

408
00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:52,420
TV presenter and radio presenter on her

409
00:15:58,530 --> 00:15:55,060
very well about Brett well read personal

410
00:16:00,030 --> 00:15:58,540
blog was posting very very inappropriate

411
00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:00,040
things about a nurse he'd run into her

412
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:01,720
program Yasmin who was extremely polite

413
00:16:04,890 --> 00:16:03,490
and courteous I mean the ridiculous

414
00:16:07,530 --> 00:16:04,900
thing about them she was about them

415
00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:07,540
insisting on taking the clipdown is what

416
00:16:11,490 --> 00:16:10,180
how am I gonna how am I gonna prove to

417
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:11,500
you that Yasmin was polite and courteous

418
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:14,290
and nice you know because i'll be seeing

419
00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:16,450
them won't let you hear the clip you

420
00:16:23,010 --> 00:16:21,220
know here is a really wealthy television

421
00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:23,020
presenter radio presenter with with

422
00:16:28,770 --> 00:16:25,840
access with a platform and to my mind

423
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:28,780
she abused fat by describing Yasmin a

424
00:16:32,490 --> 00:16:30,850
nurse who works for the NHS for the

425
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:32,500
public good who rang up very politely

426
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:34,690
and courteously by describing her as

427
00:16:41,570 --> 00:16:38,610
vicious and then most crucially of all

428
00:16:44,580 --> 00:16:41,580
deleting all the comments from her blog

429
00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:44,590
including you know defense you know

430
00:16:50,130 --> 00:16:47,320
people who were defending and Yasmin

431
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:50,140
against that accusation so Ben what what

432
00:16:54,270 --> 00:16:51,850
do you think of this sort of destroys

433
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:54,280
and effect that God got all these people

434
00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:55,600
together from all over the world it was

435
00:16:58,920 --> 00:16:57,490
like a new sort of skeptical false in a

436
00:17:01,470 --> 00:16:58,930
way wasn't it that almost happened

437
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:01,480
overnight it was amazing I mean I

438
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:03,250
wouldn't want to be sort of narcissistic

439
00:17:08,199 --> 00:17:05,089
about it I mean I don't you know

440
00:17:10,779 --> 00:17:08,209
it was like a lot go away no but it was

441
00:17:12,819 --> 00:17:10,789
a hose it's it's kind of it's kind of

442
00:17:16,329 --> 00:17:12,829
flattering but but i think it's i think

443
00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:16,339
what we was really really good about it

444
00:17:22,449 --> 00:17:20,150
is so much of the coverage so much of

445
00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:22,459
what people wrote was incredibly

446
00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:27,529
thoughtful and balanced and sensible and

447
00:17:31,630 --> 00:17:29,720
where it was sort of silly and childish

448
00:17:33,370 --> 00:17:31,640
and funny it was silly and childish and

449
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:33,380
funny in exactly the kind of way that I

450
00:17:38,919 --> 00:17:37,010
enjoy you know anything and yeah and and

451
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:38,929
so constructive that I mean that was

452
00:17:42,970 --> 00:17:40,250
what was really amazing about it was

453
00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:42,980
actually was to kind of go God not only

454
00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:45,260
are there quite a lot of us but actually

455
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:48,230
we're all quite quite sound minded and

456
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:50,690
that was the young that was the really

457
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:52,880
great thing I think you know that and

458
00:17:56,169 --> 00:17:54,770
the fact that also now with so many

459
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,179
people covering it with so much

460
00:18:00,639 --> 00:17:58,640
attention drawn to it it has become like

461
00:18:03,850 --> 00:18:00,649
what I what I initially hoped which is

462
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:03,860
this very instructive example and people

463
00:18:06,610 --> 00:18:04,970
are really sort of going through it

464
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:06,620
piece by piece instead of pulling out

465
00:18:10,090 --> 00:18:08,330
all of the errors and misrepresentations

466
00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:10,100
and and everybody kind of linking to

467
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:12,020
everybody else and talking through stuff

468
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:14,240
and actually I think I think the one the

469
00:18:17,649 --> 00:18:15,440
only sort of one thing that maybe needs

470
00:18:19,899 --> 00:18:17,659
to happen now and that would be really

471
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:19,909
useful I don't know if it has happened

472
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:23,360
yet is them if anybody was sort of was

473
00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:26,090
bored and procrastinating on a more

474
00:18:32,740 --> 00:18:30,260
important Road yeah maybe to rewrite to

475
00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:32,750
really callate and to collate the fully

476
00:18:38,289 --> 00:18:35,020
for the whole 44-minute transcript and

477
00:18:40,529 --> 00:18:38,299
with links to the rebuttals of each and

478
00:18:44,110 --> 00:18:40,539
every step would just be a fascinating

479
00:18:47,230 --> 00:18:44,120
hilarious document to have because we've

480
00:18:50,769 --> 00:18:47,240
crowdsource so much an energy and and

481
00:18:52,299 --> 00:18:50,779
knowledge here and and it's you know I

482
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:52,309
think it's I think it's a great example

483
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:54,080
of what things can do but and it's also

484
00:18:57,970 --> 00:18:55,760
a great example of the seal the

485
00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:57,980
paradoxical effects that things can have

486
00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:00,559
on the internet and I mean if you asked

487
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:02,870
for it happen it would never happen you

488
00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:04,970
know it just it just wouldn't for those

489
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:06,830
of you yet to hear the broadcast the

490
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,350
entire 44 minute excerpt from Jenny's

491
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:11,600
show is posted on my youtube account

492
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:17,120
located at rachey said RAC hie sy d

493
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:19,370
for the full transcript visit the

494
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:22,720
science Punk blog at science blogs com I

495
00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:25,910
am also hosting part 4 of the transcript

496
00:19:33,610 --> 00:19:28,360
at my blog the skeptics book of poo poo

497
00:19:36,010 --> 00:19:33,620
located at ww skeptics book calm zone

498
00:19:39,549 --> 00:19:36,020
reporter Kylie Sturgis also has part of

499
00:19:41,290 --> 00:19:39,559
the transcript at pod black calm you can

500
00:19:43,780 --> 00:19:41,300
find links to other blogs about the

501
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:43,790
affair at Hallford watch visit holford

502
00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:47,450
watch dot info plus check ben's blog at

503
00:19:53,860 --> 00:19:50,440
bad science net for updates and news

504
00:19:56,410 --> 00:19:53,870
after the break more ben goldacre part 2

505
00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:56,420
of my interview from two weeks ago where

506
00:20:00,790 --> 00:19:58,160
we continue our discussion about the

507
00:20:02,380 --> 00:20:00,800
matthias wrath defamation case and bad

508
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:02,390
science reporting by the mainstream

509
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:16,040
this stuff is fun you're listening too

510
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:18,690
far by George her ab you can find out

511
00:20:24,590 --> 00:20:20,850
more about George her ad by visiting his

512
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:24,600
website at www George horab dot blog

513
00:20:29,870 --> 00:20:28,080
spot.com where you can even find the

514
00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:29,880
lyrics to this song try singing along

515
00:20:35,390 --> 00:20:32,390
with it of course he's singing about the

516
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:35,400
365 days of astronomy podcast one

517
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:39,450
podcast every day for 2009 and you can

518
00:20:46,610 --> 00:20:43,650
find that at 365 days of astronomy one

519
00:20:55,810 --> 00:20:46,620
word or go check it out there will be a

520
00:21:02,650 --> 00:20:59,020
there by car in a day and super crazy

521
00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:02,660
far but just false ours way stars

522
00:21:18,260 --> 00:21:15,770
hello I'm dr. Karen stalls know from the

523
00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:18,270
Skip block and bad language I'm

524
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:21,420
also editor of the skeptic magazine the

525
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:23,010
skeptic is an almost 30 year old

526
00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:25,530
magazine about skepticism science and

527
00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:28,590
society we feature skeptical articles

528
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:30,840
about a broad range of paranormal occult

529
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:33,450
and supernatural topics including ghosts

530
00:21:40,430 --> 00:21:38,280
astrology psychics UFOs and Colts we

531
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:40,440
talk the skeptical talk but also walk

532
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:43,110
the skeptical walk the skeptic road test

533
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:45,480
pseudoscience investigates bizarre

534
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:47,250
beliefs and practices like fire walking

535
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:50,010
and divining you'll recognize a few

536
00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:51,570
faces from the skeptic zone too

537
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:54,390
including Richard Saunders dr. Rachel

538
00:21:59,960 --> 00:21:57,210
Dunlop Michael Willa hen Kylie Sturgis

539
00:22:03,289 --> 00:21:59,970
and me we're always looking for new

540
00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:03,299
contributors and new readers visit the

541
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:07,169
link on our website at wwc apx Comte you

542
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:09,090
where you can check out some articles

543
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:11,610
and subscribe and look out for the

544
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:13,260
skeptic in newsstands and bookstores

545
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:24,160
in our last skeptics own special we

546
00:22:29,170 --> 00:22:26,090
spoke with dr. ben goldacre of the bad

547
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:29,180
science column blog and book he told us

548
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:31,360
all about his experiences exposing the

549
00:22:35,650 --> 00:22:32,960
misrepresentation of science in the

550
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:35,660
media he also gave us some insight into

551
00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:37,610
the details surrounding the libel or

552
00:22:42,910 --> 00:22:39,950
defamation case brought against him and

553
00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:42,920
the Guardian by Matthias wrath and this

554
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:44,870
was a result of ben's criticism of the

555
00:22:50,380 --> 00:22:47,210
man's campaign to introduce vitamins as

556
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:50,390
a cure for AIDS in south africa on this

557
00:22:54,370 --> 00:22:52,310
week skeptics own special we present

558
00:22:56,590 --> 00:22:54,380
part 2 of this interview where Ben

559
00:22:58,510 --> 00:22:56,600
covers the outcome of the case and tells

560
00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:58,520
us why he is just as critical of the

561
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:00,950
pharmaceutical industry as he is of the

562
00:23:05,950 --> 00:23:04,010
alternative medicine community I started

563
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:05,960
off by asking Ben about the outcome of

564
00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:10,010
the libel case uh well he pulled out and

565
00:23:16,270 --> 00:23:14,150
after 15 months of you know having to

566
00:23:19,060 --> 00:23:16,280
tool around and deal with lawyers and

567
00:23:20,890 --> 00:23:19,070
stuff and our legal costs were five

568
00:23:22,770 --> 00:23:20,900
hundred and thirty five thousand pounds

569
00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:22,780
of which he's already paid i think

570
00:23:27,730 --> 00:23:26,000
220,000 and we're pursuing him for the

571
00:23:29,740 --> 00:23:27,740
remainder it's worth pointing out that

572
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:29,750
he's and you know he's got a long track

573
00:23:35,350 --> 00:23:32,510
record of suing people people including

574
00:23:38,020 --> 00:23:35,360
med sansome frontiere I mean whose shoes

575
00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:38,030
hey why'd he tried to sue Metis also

576
00:23:43,180 --> 00:23:41,240
frontier yes no you did yeah and there

577
00:23:44,590 --> 00:23:43,190
was this really weary press release when

578
00:23:46,690 --> 00:23:44,600
it collapsed where they just sort of

579
00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:46,700
said we're really glad this is over now

580
00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:48,350
we can get on with doing like real work

581
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:51,320
and you know he sued I mean it's endless

582
00:23:56,170 --> 00:23:54,320
the list of people that he sued he's

583
00:23:57,940 --> 00:23:56,180
Superman action campaign all of that

584
00:23:59,740 --> 00:23:57,950
yeah I mean when you're suing MSF you

585
00:24:02,260 --> 00:23:59,750
know you're like there's something wrong

586
00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:02,270
with you really isn't it well yeah I

587
00:24:06,580 --> 00:24:04,790
guess so that's that's the way it is

588
00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:06,590
with that with our legal system and not

589
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:10,820
but I mean I suppose you know I'm one

590
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:16,010
tenacious you know and I guess I mean

591
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:19,250
you come out of 15 months of that sort

592
00:24:25,930 --> 00:24:22,970
of scale of nonsense with with a very

593
00:24:30,430 --> 00:24:25,940
large number of boxes containing witness

594
00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:30,440
statements and examples of adverts from

595
00:24:36,669 --> 00:24:33,350
matara and all of that and I guess I now

596
00:24:38,169 --> 00:24:36,679
no more about this guy than probably

597
00:24:41,049 --> 00:24:38,179
anybody else in the world with the

598
00:24:43,419 --> 00:24:41,059
exception of the people in South Africa

599
00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:43,429
you know like tack I'm not a wealthy man

600
00:24:48,010 --> 00:24:45,950
I need to sort of make the best that I

601
00:24:50,409 --> 00:24:48,020
can of the time that I've spent on that

602
00:24:54,010 --> 00:24:50,419
so I guess you know I'm going to have to

603
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:54,020
write a maybe a book about me Thomas

604
00:24:59,470 --> 00:24:57,110
Rath will find some useful sort of way

605
00:25:01,900 --> 00:24:59,480
of putting all that time to use you know

606
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:01,910
me not not not out of vindictiveness but

607
00:25:05,169 --> 00:25:03,410
just you know I mean I there's a lot of

608
00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:05,179
information there which I suppose and

609
00:25:10,020 --> 00:25:07,940
you know it it would be a tragedy if

610
00:25:12,130 --> 00:25:10,030
some good didn't come of this yes

611
00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:12,140
ridiculous really sort of in a

612
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:14,630
million-dollar waste of time and effort

613
00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:17,570
and effort and money yeah well one of

614
00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:19,400
the things that you do Ben is your very

615
00:25:23,409 --> 00:25:21,470
critical of alt alternative medicine but

616
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:23,419
you're also critical of Big Pharma and

617
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:25,760
this confuses a lot of your critics

618
00:25:29,470 --> 00:25:27,440
because they try to go with the line of

619
00:25:32,260 --> 00:25:29,480
Big Pharma stooge but in fact you're

620
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:32,270
just as critical of Big Pharma can you

621
00:25:36,580 --> 00:25:33,530
give us some idea about why you

622
00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:36,590
criticize Big Pharma uh because they do

623
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:39,740
really bad stuff okay can you be more

624
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,200
specific yeah well I mean this is kyle

625
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:46,880
you know this is what I I teach medical

626
00:25:52,810 --> 00:25:48,890
students and doctors on this you know I

627
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:52,820
do a legit and course and it's called

628
00:25:56,919 --> 00:25:54,530
drug company is how it actually

629
00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:56,929
would appear Zahn the UCL timetable I

630
00:26:00,669 --> 00:25:59,120
was delighted I see where it's called

631
00:26:02,649 --> 00:26:00,679
critically appraising clinical trial

632
00:26:04,570 --> 00:26:02,659
methodologies from industry yeah i mean

633
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:04,580
the you know i don't see any real

634
00:26:09,669 --> 00:26:07,570
dividing line between Big Pharma and

635
00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:09,679
alternative therapists quacks you know

636
00:26:15,010 --> 00:26:12,289
they're all using the same tricks the

637
00:26:16,210 --> 00:26:15,020
same sleight of hand to sell pills and

638
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:16,220
treatments to people and they're all

639
00:26:22,060 --> 00:26:18,770
using the same tricks to misrepresent

640
00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:22,070
evidence I mean big pharma because

641
00:26:25,149 --> 00:26:23,150
they're not allowed to advertise

642
00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:25,159
directly to doctors outside of America

643
00:26:29,409 --> 00:26:27,919
and New Zealand and yea big farmer tends

644
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:29,419
to have to use slightly more

645
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:31,970
sophisticated tricks because they're

646
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:34,030
using these tricks on people like

647
00:26:38,140 --> 00:26:36,710
pharmacists and doctors and so the

648
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:38,150
slights of hands have to be slightly

649
00:26:42,909 --> 00:26:41,030
more elegant and sophisticated and also

650
00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:42,919
because they're not sort of carrying out

651
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:45,500
these acts of sleight of hand in terms

652
00:26:49,519 --> 00:26:46,710
of misrepresenting the evidence

653
00:26:52,220 --> 00:26:49,529
so commonly in mainstream popular

654
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:52,230
culture it's a discourse that happens in

655
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:54,480
academia and in sort of teaching I mean

656
00:26:59,180 --> 00:26:57,090
I couldn't very well write about fair a

657
00:27:01,090 --> 00:26:59,190
few of the things that I teach on to

658
00:27:03,710 --> 00:27:01,100
doctors and medical students because

659
00:27:06,110 --> 00:27:03,720
they're not examples from popular

660
00:27:08,090 --> 00:27:06,120
culture no substantive it although I do

661
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:08,100
often in the column wherever I can

662
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,210
wherever there's something that sort of

663
00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:11,520
hit the news then I'll certainly done

664
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:13,320
live in and but the tricks of the trade

665
00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:15,330
are all exactly the same and all of the

666
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,190
all of things that you know homeopaths

667
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:19,200
used to rig their trials like inadequate

668
00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:21,510
blinding inadequate randomization that

669
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:23,220
kind of thing have all been seen in

670
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:25,020
pharmaceutical industry trials before

671
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:26,640
I'm working on something at the moment

672
00:27:32,269 --> 00:27:29,840
with a couple of colleagues on an

673
00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:32,279
interpretive bias in acupuncture studies

674
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:33,809
and its really interesting how you know

675
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:35,250
exactly the same things I found in

676
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:36,809
acupuncture studies that you find in Big

677
00:27:41,389 --> 00:27:39,600
Pharma so interpretive biases basically

678
00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:41,399
you know you've reported the methods and

679
00:27:44,690 --> 00:27:42,360
the results of your experiment

680
00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:44,700
accurately but your interpretation of

681
00:27:48,049 --> 00:27:46,289
those in the discussion section is just

682
00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:48,059
completely bonkers and off the wall and

683
00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:49,740
in the anatomic your royal the rest of

684
00:27:54,110 --> 00:27:51,630
that yeah exactly yeah so in the

685
00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:54,120
acupuncture world it's you know people

686
00:27:58,940 --> 00:27:56,370
do three armed studies they do sort of

687
00:28:00,980 --> 00:27:58,950
you know treatment as usual in a or sort

688
00:28:03,230 --> 00:28:00,990
of no treatment at all then sham

689
00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:03,240
acupuncture sort of randomly using fake

690
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:05,070
needles that random points the body

691
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:07,679
against genuine acupuncture so proper

692
00:28:10,820 --> 00:28:09,240
full on ceremonial acupuncture and the

693
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:10,830
results of these trials are almost

694
00:28:17,090 --> 00:28:14,190
always both sham and genuine acupuncture

695
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:17,100
do better than nothing but there's no

696
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:18,840
difference between sham acupuncture and

697
00:28:22,669 --> 00:28:21,360
genuine acupuncture and all of the

698
00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:22,679
acupuncture is say all right that means

699
00:28:26,810 --> 00:28:24,360
acupuncture works in your life no it

700
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:26,820
hasn't it means it's that a really

701
00:28:31,549 --> 00:28:29,610
elaborate placebo ritual with lots of

702
00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:31,559
sauce ceremonial components and works

703
00:28:37,130 --> 00:28:33,630
and that doesn't surprise me I'm cool

704
00:28:38,779 --> 00:28:37,140
with that you know getting but what's

705
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:38,789
interesting about that is that exactly

706
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:41,130
the same thing happens in mainstream

707
00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:42,510
medicine so for example there was a very

708
00:28:46,990 --> 00:28:44,899
interesting study recently comparing

709
00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:47,000
industry-funded meta-analysis

710
00:28:51,649 --> 00:28:49,289
meta-analysis against independent

711
00:28:54,289 --> 00:28:51,659
cochrane meta-analyses and they found

712
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:54,299
that the actual results that they

713
00:29:00,320 --> 00:28:57,570
reported were genuine generally the same

714
00:29:01,940 --> 00:29:00,330
but the industry-funded meta-analyses

715
00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:01,950
ended in their discussion sections to

716
00:29:06,740 --> 00:29:05,039
say and that means our drug works where

717
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:06,750
is the independent ones we tend to say

718
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:08,730
and that means it's not really worth

719
00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:11,850
easier and so you know it's it's you

720
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:13,590
know it's just surprising yeah yeah

721
00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:14,970
who'd of thought ain't so it's just

722
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:16,289
fascinating really how the different

723
00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:18,450
tent sort of industries use exactly the

724
00:29:22,509 --> 00:29:20,940
same and tricks and you know the other

725
00:29:24,889 --> 00:29:22,519
thing is you know all of the things that

726
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:24,899
the alternative therapists accuse other

727
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:27,840
people of you know they do and that's a

728
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:29,970
that's what I find fascinating but then

729
00:29:33,379 --> 00:29:32,250
you know I mean I think it's important

730
00:29:35,330 --> 00:29:33,389
to remember that in the world of

731
00:29:36,889 --> 00:29:35,340
alternative therapy you know they set

732
00:29:39,049 --> 00:29:36,899
themselves up in opposition to the

733
00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:39,059
pharmaceutical industry not in any

734
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:41,580
meaningful sense but just as an aspect

735
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:44,159
of their brand identity and they do so

736
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:45,600
with good reason because they've been

737
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:48,090
huge numbers of surveys of why people do

738
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:50,130
why people go for alternative therapies

739
00:29:55,399 --> 00:29:52,080
and it's actually very very hard to find

740
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:55,409
anything consistent and expected so for

741
00:29:58,730 --> 00:29:57,360
example you know a level of scientific

742
00:29:59,990 --> 00:29:58,740
understanding doesn't correlate very

743
00:30:02,509 --> 00:30:00,000
well with how much people use

744
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:02,519
alternative therapies and but the one

745
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:04,320
thing that does repeatedly come out is

746
00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:06,510
that people who've had a bad experience

747
00:30:12,289 --> 00:30:09,480
with mainstream medicine are more likely

748
00:30:14,029 --> 00:30:12,299
to seek out alternative therapies and I

749
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:14,039
think that people who are marketing

750
00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:16,110
these alternative therapies know that

751
00:30:21,529 --> 00:30:19,500
and that's why they set themselves up in

752
00:30:23,509 --> 00:30:21,539
opposition to Big Pharma that's why and

753
00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:23,519
and mainstream medicine you know that's

754
00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:25,350
why they're constantly sort of making

755
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:27,809
these rather shrill and melodramatic

756
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:30,330
critiques in mainstream medicine which I

757
00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:33,090
think again you know represent quite a

758
00:30:36,919 --> 00:30:35,340
serious opportunity cost opportunity

759
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:36,929
cost is you know the true cost of of

760
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:38,159
something is what you give up in order

761
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:40,320
to get it so an opportunity cost is

762
00:30:43,730 --> 00:30:42,330
something that you do wastefully when

763
00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:43,740
you could be doing something useful

764
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:45,960
instead and that's that's probably the

765
00:30:50,509 --> 00:30:48,450
greatest concrete harm that comes from

766
00:30:52,430 --> 00:30:50,519
alternative therapies because firstly

767
00:30:55,009 --> 00:30:52,440
when you could be spending all of this

768
00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:55,019
sort of health risk behavior motivation

769
00:30:58,399 --> 00:30:57,000
that you have on doing something useful

770
00:31:00,799 --> 00:30:58,409
for your health instead you're buying

771
00:31:02,899 --> 00:31:00,809
these pointless vitamin pills or or you

772
00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:02,909
know doing a 5 day detox or something

773
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:04,470
but the other problem is that you know

774
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:06,330
there's cultural opportunity cost which

775
00:31:10,779 --> 00:31:09,570
is there are huge huge problems with the

776
00:31:13,529 --> 00:31:10,789
way that the pharmaceutical industry

777
00:31:15,419 --> 00:31:13,539
runs itself and they do practically run

778
00:31:17,399 --> 00:31:15,429
selves because regulators have

779
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:17,409
repeatedly shown themselves to be pretty

780
00:31:21,060 --> 00:31:19,690
pretty hopeless in this area there are

781
00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:21,070
huge problems with the way that big

782
00:31:26,609 --> 00:31:23,830
farmer is going but they're slightly

783
00:31:29,070 --> 00:31:26,619
complicated issues and they don't have

784
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:29,080
any purchase in popular culture but

785
00:31:34,379 --> 00:31:31,809
instead yes what you get is this really

786
00:31:36,029 --> 00:31:34,389
childish right stuff like you know big

787
00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:36,039
farmers evil therefore homeopathy works

788
00:31:41,369 --> 00:31:38,289
better than placebo big fun with you

789
00:31:43,739 --> 00:31:41,379
therefore vaccines cause autism and the

790
00:31:46,589 --> 00:31:43,749
tragedy of that is that I wrote about

791
00:31:49,469 --> 00:31:46,599
the pharmaceutical industry deliberately

792
00:31:51,869 --> 00:31:49,479
hiding evidence of harm from their drugs

793
00:31:53,849 --> 00:31:51,879
and evidence of drugs not being much

794
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:53,859
better than placebo I wrote about that

795
00:31:58,589 --> 00:31:56,320
in national newspapers that was SSRIs

796
00:32:00,299 --> 00:31:58,599
wasn't that yeah yeah yeah and and I

797
00:32:01,919 --> 00:32:00,309
read about that in in three different

798
00:32:07,049 --> 00:32:01,929
newspapers on two different continents

799
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:07,059
that story lasted globally for about

800
00:32:13,109 --> 00:32:10,720
five days and then it just died and that

801
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:13,119
was a true story about real bad stuff

802
00:32:16,259 --> 00:32:14,710
that will still go on because their

803
00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:16,269
regulatory response to it is inadequate

804
00:32:19,379 --> 00:32:18,190
we don't have you know proper clinical

805
00:32:21,239 --> 00:32:19,389
trials registers and all the stuff I

806
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:21,249
write about in the book done so crap on

807
00:32:26,759 --> 00:32:25,090
it the book by the book the work and you

808
00:32:31,289 --> 00:32:26,769
know they don't have any of that staff

809
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:31,299
in place meanwhile this childish fantasy

810
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:33,369
that that the MMR vaccine causes autism

811
00:32:39,539 --> 00:32:38,049
in the UK has run for 10 years you know

812
00:32:42,239 --> 00:32:39,549
and the people who are driving it have

813
00:32:45,779 --> 00:32:42,249
the grandiosity to portray themselves as

814
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:45,789
these noble figures battling against big

815
00:32:50,940 --> 00:32:48,399
farmer and you just think you know you

816
00:32:53,549 --> 00:32:50,950
guys are just the biggest barrier to a

817
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:53,559
meaningful discourse on on the crimes of

818
00:32:58,109 --> 00:32:55,090
a pharmaceutical industry that I could

819
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:58,119
possibly imagine you know well it was

820
00:33:02,969 --> 00:32:59,919
then it was only yesterday that another

821
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:02,979
article appeared in in the BBC i believe

822
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:05,200
wasn't it in print about mmm oh you may

823
00:33:10,469 --> 00:33:08,320
listen yeah daily mail yet wasn't even

824
00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:10,479
autism I it was some other so you know

825
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:11,769
it's just you know a kid who suddenly

826
00:33:14,879 --> 00:33:13,330
got ill and it was a couple of days

827
00:33:16,859 --> 00:33:14,889
after having the vaccine yeah that's

828
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:16,869
right i mean what you're kind of seeing

829
00:33:23,339 --> 00:33:19,690
there is is a number of different things

830
00:33:24,629 --> 00:33:23,349
firstly in mainstream medicine we have

831
00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:24,639
this thing called the hierarchy of

832
00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:26,700
evidence right which is

833
00:33:30,020 --> 00:33:28,620
your analyses which are you get all of

834
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:30,030
the results from all of your little

835
00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:31,170
clinical trials and you put them all

836
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:32,700
into one big spreadsheet and you get a

837
00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:36,150
really big number of participants and so

838
00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:37,550
that gives you a much more accurate

839
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:39,750
answer of whether a treatment works or

840
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:41,610
not right so in the hierarchy of

841
00:33:44,660 --> 00:33:42,510
evidence in mainstream medicine

842
00:33:45,980 --> 00:33:44,670
meta-analysis and systematic review are

843
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,990
right at the top and then it kind of

844
00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:48,120
goes down your trials observational

845
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:49,620
studies perspective covel studies case

846
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:52,110
control then right at the bottom you

847
00:33:56,990 --> 00:33:54,570
have individual case reports like you

848
00:33:59,150 --> 00:33:57,000
know anecdotes and then write the bottom

849
00:34:01,880 --> 00:33:59,160
even below that you have expert opinion

850
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:01,890
because you know expert opinions

851
00:34:07,490 --> 00:34:06,000
definitely always and and the

852
00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:07,500
interesting thing about that is it seems

853
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:09,300
to me that in mainstream media and i'm

854
00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:12,330
doing a quantitative study on on media

855
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:14,100
output in the UK up on this at the

856
00:34:19,220 --> 00:34:17,490
moment it seems to me that the hierarchy

857
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:19,230
of evidence in mainstream media is is

858
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:22,800
inverted so individual case reports and

859
00:34:29,630 --> 00:34:26,220
expert opinions are front page news page

860
00:34:31,700 --> 00:34:29,640
news right but meta analyses and

861
00:34:33,740 --> 00:34:31,710
chrome reviews and stuff yes barely

862
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,750
register you know they barely deserve a

863
00:34:38,150 --> 00:34:36,000
mention and that to me is really

864
00:34:39,890 --> 00:34:38,160
fascinating you know I've got a paper

865
00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:39,900
being submitted at moment showing that

866
00:34:43,340 --> 00:34:41,940
over the past a year a whole years worth

867
00:34:46,910 --> 00:34:43,350
of coverage for the Cochrane Library

868
00:34:48,740 --> 00:34:46,920
which is you know produces gold standard

869
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:48,750
systematic reviews and meta-analyses is

870
00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:50,820
this independent academic collaboration

871
00:34:57,550 --> 00:34:54,060
that's worldwide truly amazing resource

872
00:35:00,110 --> 00:34:57,560
and institution it is they publish about

873
00:35:02,780 --> 00:35:00,120
600 systematic reviews and meta-analyses

874
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:02,790
every year and in the UK they had 50

875
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,650
items of news coverage in one year in

876
00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:06,720
total throughout all newspapers and

877
00:35:11,420 --> 00:35:09,180
that's nothing you know yeah and that's

878
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:11,430
that what doctors and a dose would

879
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:13,290
consider to be gold standard evidence

880
00:35:18,290 --> 00:35:16,140
and it's nowhere in mainstream media

881
00:35:20,450 --> 00:35:18,300
meanwhile these some little stories our

882
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:20,460
fanpage earnings anyway the I mean the

883
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:22,110
other interesting thing about that are

884
00:35:27,140 --> 00:35:24,810
taking the Daily Mail is that individual

885
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:27,150
children may well occasionally have

886
00:35:30,890 --> 00:35:29,310
adverse consequences from vaccinations I

887
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:30,900
don't know about the details of this

888
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:32,970
case I do know that they had an exactly

889
00:35:36,590 --> 00:35:33,960
they had a very similar case about a

890
00:35:39,050 --> 00:35:36,600
month ago where they were saying oh you

891
00:35:39,660 --> 00:35:39,060
know this coroner's report is coming up

892
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:39,670
there's a

893
00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:41,049
this case it's being heard at the moment

894
00:35:45,630 --> 00:35:44,260
it's MMR vaccine on trial this child was

895
00:35:46,829 --> 00:35:45,640
damaged by the MMR vaccine and they

896
00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:46,839
reported all of that while it was on

897
00:35:51,270 --> 00:35:48,760
going and then the result of the

898
00:35:53,150 --> 00:35:51,280
coroner's inquest was yeah this had

899
00:35:56,309 --> 00:35:53,160
nothing to do with the MMR vaccine and

900
00:35:57,599 --> 00:35:56,319
only one of the 80 newspapers or

901
00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:57,609
something that covered it actually

902
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:00,400
bothered to report the outcome which is

903
00:36:06,089 --> 00:36:02,890
pretty astonishing but anyway you talk

904
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:06,099
about Lebanese sorry yeah yeah no no you

905
00:36:09,450 --> 00:36:07,569
were mentioning my book that's great I'm

906
00:36:11,370 --> 00:36:09,460
very bad the book when you talk about

907
00:36:13,890 --> 00:36:11,380
that in in your book bad science because

908
00:36:16,319 --> 00:36:13,900
you talk about how a lot of these big

909
00:36:18,809 --> 00:36:16,329
stories don't go to specialist science

910
00:36:20,730 --> 00:36:18,819
journalists they'll go to journalists

911
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:20,740
who don't have much expertise in its

912
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:23,200
area so they'll just follow that the

913
00:36:26,460 --> 00:36:24,730
line of well the evidence has been

914
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:26,470
debunked but when it never was really

915
00:36:32,370 --> 00:36:29,770
there in the case of MMR at least that's

916
00:36:34,770 --> 00:36:32,380
what I'm here to talk about and so in

917
00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:34,780
the book yeah I mean like I I kind of

918
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:37,569
try and go after a prolonged sort of

919
00:36:43,650 --> 00:36:40,240
parade of morons from mainstream news

920
00:36:45,150 --> 00:36:43,660
media I try to understand what's going

921
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:45,160
on and you're right one of the most

922
00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:47,290
interesting things is when I first got

923
00:36:50,250 --> 00:36:49,180
into this game I I thought all health

924
00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:50,260
and science journalists must just be

925
00:36:53,789 --> 00:36:51,790
morons because there were no other

926
00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:53,799
explanation for the phenomena that I was

927
00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:55,540
observing but actually it turns out that

928
00:36:59,630 --> 00:36:57,190
it's it's a bit more complicated than

929
00:37:02,490 --> 00:36:59,640
that you know and actually that's the

930
00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:02,500
that's that's the slogan on a t-shirt

931
00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:03,609
that I'm selling through the website

932
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:05,140
bad-sized on it I personally believe

933
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:07,569
this is the funniest slogan t-shirt ever

934
00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:09,130
produced in the history of mankind it

935
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:11,049
just says I think you'll find it's a bit

936
00:37:15,210 --> 00:37:13,210
more complicated than that and have a

937
00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:15,220
purpose and we're holding a competition

938
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:17,230
where you can send in pictures of you

939
00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:18,970
wearing the t-shirt next to somebody

940
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:20,680
else wearing their own slogan t-shirt so

941
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:23,170
it's like drop beats not bombs I think

942
00:37:26,579 --> 00:37:23,890
you'll find it's a bit more complicated

943
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:26,589
than that and stuff I saw somebody on

944
00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:27,670
the to the other day wearing a t-shirt

945
00:37:32,180 --> 00:37:29,260
that said I need a hug and I just

946
00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:32,190
thought this is the perfect opportunity

947
00:37:37,140 --> 00:37:34,630
anyway um can I suggest something to you

948
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:37,150
Ben just it just quickly I'd love you to

949
00:37:42,539 --> 00:37:40,450
make a t-shirt of the title of your blog

950
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:42,549
recently the one that said the barefaced

951
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:44,290
cheek of these characters will never

952
00:37:49,470 --> 00:37:47,710
cease to amaze and delight me that's one

953
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:49,480
of the best titles for a blog of ever

954
00:37:54,860 --> 00:37:52,890
seen that gave me such a big love

955
00:37:57,140 --> 00:37:54,870
they are pretty shameless yeah but

956
00:37:58,430 --> 00:37:57,150
anyway what we do oh yeah yes it's a bit

957
00:38:00,050 --> 00:37:58,440
more complicated than just science and

958
00:38:03,380 --> 00:38:00,060
health Dennis being being morons in

959
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:03,390
actual fact it seems to be more commonly

960
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:05,310
that it's sort of senior figures at the

961
00:38:09,530 --> 00:38:07,290
paper you know the sort of the flaky

962
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:09,540
humanities graduates in senior executive

963
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:11,490
and editorial rolled whom who wear their

964
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:13,890
ignorance of basic science as a matter

965
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:17,130
of pride on their sleeves who sort of go

966
00:38:21,350 --> 00:38:18,510
up to the health and science products

967
00:38:23,540 --> 00:38:21,360
and say you must cover this stupid story

968
00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:23,550
and then there are sort of big arguments

969
00:38:26,570 --> 00:38:24,990
and that happened with things like you

970
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:26,580
know the kind of journalism stuff like

971
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:28,650
wall men will have big willy's that sort

972
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:31,290
of bogus they are so if you know the

973
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:32,610
equations for the happiest day of the

974
00:38:37,070 --> 00:38:34,770
year sponsored by a travel company

975
00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:37,080
against the end of January perfect time

976
00:38:40,910 --> 00:38:39,150
to book a holiday if equation for the

977
00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:40,920
happiest day of the year is is a

978
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:43,020
beginning of summer perfect time for

979
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:45,570
buying ice cream and sponsored bad man

980
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:47,370
and when that sort of action actually

981
00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:49,290
Bennett was reported here on the 19th of

982
00:38:54,290 --> 00:38:51,300
January that it was the most depressing

983
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:54,300
day of the year that was we got one of

984
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:56,010
those stories it because I just read

985
00:38:59,150 --> 00:38:57,330
your book and I read all that and then

986
00:39:01,640 --> 00:38:59,160
it appeared in the papers here on the

987
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:01,650
19th of January it is so brilliantly

988
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:04,890
nuts but anyway and so you know the the

989
00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:06,210
science and health correspondents are

990
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:07,590
sort of approached by senior editorial

991
00:39:10,970 --> 00:39:09,330
figures to write up stupid stories like

992
00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:10,980
that and I now know because I go out

993
00:39:13,940 --> 00:39:12,360
drinking with these people that they say

994
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:13,950
look please don't make me write the

995
00:39:18,110 --> 00:39:16,050
really stupid story and then a you know

996
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:18,120
a battle will ensue but even more

997
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:19,650
interesting Lee than that when a story

998
00:39:22,970 --> 00:39:21,450
becomes a big political hot potato it

999
00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:22,980
tends to get taken out of the hands of

1000
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:25,470
the individual specialist health and

1001
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:26,970
science journalist and put into the

1002
00:39:32,060 --> 00:39:29,130
hands of the generalists you know the

1003
00:39:33,410 --> 00:39:32,070
Star News correspondent the columnist

1004
00:39:34,910 --> 00:39:33,420
who's normally writing about really

1005
00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:34,920
funny thing the au pair said on the way

1006
00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:37,470
to a dinner party and suddenly those

1007
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:39,990
Joker's are writing about MMR and giving

1008
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:43,170
people you know health advice on really

1009
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:44,850
complicated issues of immunology and

1010
00:39:50,570 --> 00:39:48,090
epidemiology and in the case of MMR for

1011
00:39:52,190 --> 00:39:50,580
example and there's a very good study

1012
00:39:54,260 --> 00:39:52,200
done by Cardiff University School of

1013
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:54,270
Journalism which showed that stories

1014
00:39:57,590 --> 00:39:56,160
about MMR were twice as likely to be

1015
00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:57,600
written about by generalist I think was

1016
00:40:00,490 --> 00:39:58,680
eighty percent of all stories are

1017
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:00,500
written about by generalists right and

1018
00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:02,400
twice it's like to be written about by

1019
00:40:05,450 --> 00:40:04,500
generous than stories about cloning for

1020
00:40:08,420 --> 00:40:05,460
example and

1021
00:40:10,070 --> 00:40:08,430
other science stories so you know as

1022
00:40:12,020 --> 00:40:10,080
obviously as soon as the morons took

1023
00:40:13,940 --> 00:40:12,030
over the quality of the carriage

1024
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:13,950
declined and you can see exactly the

1025
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:16,800
same thing with GM so I personally have

1026
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:17,910
a slightly sort of conflicted

1027
00:40:22,670 --> 00:40:19,680
relationship with GM food because I'm

1028
00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:22,680
not very enthusiastic about GM food not

1029
00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:24,200
because I think it's going to kill us

1030
00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:26,400
not because i think you know it's not

1031
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:27,660
the sort of you know the sort of weird

1032
00:40:31,849 --> 00:40:29,970
green narcissistic thing of iron

1033
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:31,859
personally going to come to harm from

1034
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:34,050
genetically modified food I'm dubious

1035
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:36,330
about GM food because it strikes me as

1036
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:37,530
yes another opportunity for

1037
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:39,450
multinational corporations to try and

1038
00:40:43,339 --> 00:40:41,280
take control of the global food stock

1039
00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:43,349
and particularly the production of food

1040
00:40:47,420 --> 00:40:45,240
in developing countries you know also

1041
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:47,430
Monsanto is the company that made them

1042
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:49,770
Agent Orange you know and there are

1043
00:40:54,740 --> 00:40:51,330
certain thing is that they're quite hard

1044
00:40:56,930 --> 00:40:54,750
to forgive so I've got a problem with GM

1045
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,940
food but it's not GM food is going to

1046
00:41:01,370 --> 00:40:58,800
kill us all right but that was the

1047
00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:01,380
headline stories in 1998 in UK it was

1048
00:41:06,650 --> 00:41:03,270
like Frankenstein food and all of that

1049
00:41:10,099 --> 00:41:06,660
stuff and fascinatingly for the first

1050
00:41:12,410 --> 00:41:10,109
three days of the GM Frankenstein food

1051
00:41:16,310 --> 00:41:12,420
scare stories in the British news media

1052
00:41:20,060 --> 00:41:16,320
not a single one of the news or comment

1053
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:20,070
pieces in any single national newspaper

1054
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:22,170
in the UK was written by a specialist

1055
00:41:28,460 --> 00:41:24,450
health or science correspondent not a

1056
00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:28,470
single wow one and when you talk to the

1057
00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:30,270
old duffers who were around back then

1058
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:32,280
because obviously 10 years ago makes you

1059
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:34,800
an old duffer and if he talks to people

1060
00:41:37,730 --> 00:41:36,390
who are all done for it enough to have

1061
00:41:38,930 --> 00:41:37,740
retired and not care anymore and be

1062
00:41:41,329 --> 00:41:38,940
willing to be very indiscreet with your

1063
00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:41,339
parties they will say yeah we were

1064
00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:44,070
hammering on the editors door saying

1065
00:41:49,099 --> 00:41:46,260
what are you doing with this story this

1066
00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:49,109
is ninety percent cog but they weren't

1067
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:51,240
listen to and bat I think it's the kind

1068
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:53,550
of real backstory to house so much it's

1069
00:41:58,609 --> 00:41:56,640
dismal coverage gets into the news yeah

1070
00:42:01,010 --> 00:41:58,619
well a lot of this stuff is covered in

1071
00:42:02,839 --> 00:42:01,020
your book been so how can our listeners

1072
00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:02,849
get a copy of your best-selling book bad

1073
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:06,300
science well that's a very very good

1074
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:08,490
quest I don't know okay bye I mean it's

1075
00:42:12,349 --> 00:42:10,410
a racket out in Australia but I'd sort

1076
00:42:13,970 --> 00:42:12,359
of had this vague sensation that it was

1077
00:42:16,460 --> 00:42:13,980
maybe annoyingly difficult to find I

1078
00:42:17,850 --> 00:42:16,470
mean it shouldn't be it sold one metric

1079
00:42:20,370 --> 00:42:17,860
ton of copies over here after

1080
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:20,380
to my astonishment and slight concern

1081
00:42:24,780 --> 00:42:23,440
well its shadow and Christmas in the UK

1082
00:42:27,330 --> 00:42:24,790
didn't it it's sold out over christmas

1083
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:27,340
in the UK they had like three emergency

1084
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,960
repressing i don't know how many

1085
00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:30,640
thousand serie pressings you have to

1086
00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:32,910
have before it's sort of just routine

1087
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:35,140
but yeah yeah i mean you know i think

1088
00:42:42,510 --> 00:42:39,310
there is something like 60 or 70,000

1089
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:42,520
copies in print 45 or 50 thousand of

1090
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:45,250
sold already it's with dice bizarre it

1091
00:42:50,460 --> 00:42:47,280
really doesn't surprise me a half anyway

1092
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:50,470
no it's like brilliant boy i've read it

1093
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:52,330
a couple of times i really enjoyed it

1094
00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:54,490
that's very kind but I don't I mean I

1095
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:56,500
hope that the examples aren't aren't too

1096
00:42:59,310 --> 00:42:57,970
English for an Australian audience I

1097
00:43:02,040 --> 00:42:59,320
mean you have Gillian McKeith over there

1098
00:43:04,020 --> 00:43:02,050
don't you and well but when mostly these

1099
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:04,030
always don't forget Ben we're an

1100
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:06,250
international show so we go to America

1101
00:43:10,980 --> 00:43:09,370
and the UK and everywhere so know a lot

1102
00:43:13,500 --> 00:43:10,990
of well yeah so America's really buggy

1103
00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:13,510
mitt and I'm actually because I half my

1104
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:15,790
web traffic comes from the US and loads

1105
00:43:19,590 --> 00:43:17,200
of people have asked me if it's going to

1106
00:43:23,070 --> 00:43:19,600
come out there and stuff and then the

1107
00:43:24,420 --> 00:43:23,080
only publishers who want it the hot sort

1108
00:43:26,460 --> 00:43:24,430
of american version of HarperCollins and

1109
00:43:27,930 --> 00:43:26,470
they want to sort of take lots of things

1110
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:27,940
out I've just been talking about

1111
00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:29,920
yesterday ously they will take things

1112
00:43:32,610 --> 00:43:31,540
out that aren't very American and I'm

1113
00:43:34,290 --> 00:43:32,620
gonna I mean I'd really appreciate

1114
00:43:35,820 --> 00:43:34,300
anybody wants to sort of the email me

1115
00:43:38,580 --> 00:43:35,830
been at bad science don't net if you've

1116
00:43:40,350 --> 00:43:38,590
got any sort of advice on I'm really

1117
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:40,360
going to use your podcast to solicit

1118
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:43,810
help no I think that's gotten a good tip

1119
00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:46,240
of advice on what sort of them on what

1120
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:47,950
sort of stories from the book are likely

1121
00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:50,530
to be mystifying to an American audience

1122
00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:52,630
that'd be really useful or if people

1123
00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:53,740
have got any good sort of parallel

1124
00:43:59,490 --> 00:43:57,220
replacement examples i don't think i can

1125
00:44:01,650 --> 00:43:59,500
replace my fifteen thousand word take

1126
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:01,660
down at the MMR vaccine hoax with the

1127
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:03,310
American mercury story but I think

1128
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:04,930
actually it's and hopefully they'll be

1129
00:44:09,420 --> 00:44:07,450
persuadable that it's and useful to have

1130
00:44:12,510 --> 00:44:09,430
a sort of an English parallel of a

1131
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:12,520
vaccine hoax that has now sort of played

1132
00:44:16,740 --> 00:44:14,560
itself out to extinction almost in the

1133
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:16,750
UK as they are kind of at the beginning

1134
00:44:22,050 --> 00:44:19,570
in the middle of their mercury hoax yeah

1135
00:44:24,570 --> 00:44:22,060
I think it translates to the states not

1136
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:24,580
necessarily the MMR the thimerosal thing

1137
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:27,730
but the Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy

1138
00:44:32,039 --> 00:44:30,610
thing that's still so big yeah the whole

1139
00:44:34,859 --> 00:44:32,049
sort of celebrity and

1140
00:44:36,089 --> 00:44:34,869
expert thing yeah i mean i don't know i

1141
00:44:38,009 --> 00:44:36,099
think that worries me is there might be

1142
00:44:39,689 --> 00:44:38,019
a version an American version this sort

1143
00:44:41,579 --> 00:44:39,699
of bits missing the people might bump

1144
00:44:46,049 --> 00:44:41,589
Imus tape anyway this is a lot of any

1145
00:44:47,579 --> 00:44:46,059
interest at all to global audience but

1146
00:44:49,769 --> 00:44:47,589
yes if anybody's got any advice on how

1147
00:44:52,529 --> 00:44:49,779
to sort of foreign eyes my book I'd love

1148
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:52,539
to hear from them but you also want

1149
00:44:56,339 --> 00:44:54,609
people to send you stories from other

1150
00:44:59,279 --> 00:44:56,349
parts of the world that would possibly

1151
00:45:00,359 --> 00:44:59,289
be relevant for you oh god always but

1152
00:45:01,919 --> 00:45:00,369
what I really want people to do is to

1153
00:45:04,140 --> 00:45:01,929
start a blog I mean sometimes people

1154
00:45:06,089 --> 00:45:04,150
send me emails that are just so it sort

1155
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:06,099
of amazingly ornate and and well

1156
00:45:10,529 --> 00:45:08,529
researched there's so much really sort

1157
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:10,539
of valuable nerd energy out there I

1158
00:45:13,799 --> 00:45:12,400
think if we harnessed all of the angry

1159
00:45:17,279 --> 00:45:13,809
nerds in the world we could have this

1160
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:17,289
automatic refutation box that would just

1161
00:45:21,390 --> 00:45:19,359
you know produce an equal and opposite

1162
00:45:23,789 --> 00:45:21,400
output to all of the that's around

1163
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:23,799
America you know ignore the Internet to

1164
00:45:26,819 --> 00:45:25,359
a large extent because I just I don't

1165
00:45:28,439 --> 00:45:26,829
know any sort of squabble so if you know

1166
00:45:30,059 --> 00:45:28,449
some loony over there said something

1167
00:45:32,249 --> 00:45:30,069
silly on the internet maybe I'm being I

1168
00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:32,259
don't know to some one night I don't

1169
00:45:36,929 --> 00:45:34,660
know if I keep playing you see you play

1170
00:45:39,359 --> 00:45:36,939
your part with bad science net I think

1171
00:45:40,919 --> 00:45:39,369
in that sense very kind listen I mean

1172
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:40,929
there are some truly amazing blog's

1173
00:45:45,089 --> 00:45:42,910
around bad time stock bad science blogs

1174
00:45:46,739 --> 00:45:45,099
net instantly and it's like an

1175
00:45:49,259 --> 00:45:46,749
aggregator of lots and lots of other

1176
00:45:50,969 --> 00:45:49,269
English blogs that look at miss

1177
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:50,979
representation of science in the media

1178
00:45:55,620 --> 00:45:54,130
and quacks and big farmer and stuff so

1179
00:45:57,269 --> 00:45:55,630
people that are interested in that sort

1180
00:45:59,939 --> 00:45:57,279
of stuff that's really good and people

1181
00:46:02,370 --> 00:45:59,949
like quack ometer and David Calhoun are

1182
00:46:04,319 --> 00:46:02,380
really good in there as well as lots of

1183
00:46:08,429 --> 00:46:04,329
other stuff excellent so Ben are you

1184
00:46:11,609 --> 00:46:08,439
going to be at tam in 2009 uh it's at

1185
00:46:13,140 --> 00:46:11,619
the english one yeah yeah totally I'll

1186
00:46:16,019 --> 00:46:13,150
the English term while I was referring

1187
00:46:17,189 --> 00:46:16,029
to the American term oh no I haven't

1188
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:17,199
been invited maybe I did something

1189
00:46:23,099 --> 00:46:21,130
either the last war I don't I'm not sure

1190
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:23,109
I've never sort of one so massively

1191
00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:24,640
identify myself with the skeptics

1192
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:27,640
movement I don't tend it sort of it's

1193
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:30,400
not it's not really a sort of group in

1194
00:46:34,349 --> 00:46:32,410
England and all time to a pathologically

1195
00:46:35,789 --> 00:46:34,359
not i'd join them I suppose but also I

1196
00:46:38,189 --> 00:46:35,799
don't really care about ghosts and sun

1197
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:38,199
kicks and stuff I quite okay I enjoy all

1198
00:46:42,710 --> 00:46:39,729
that stuff I do you get angry about

1199
00:46:45,050 --> 00:46:42,720
ghosts that's fine i don't mind you can

1200
00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:45,060
no I I don't tend to get angry about

1201
00:46:48,290 --> 00:46:46,440
ghosts I tend to get angry about

1202
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:48,300
alternative medicine person maybe that's

1203
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:50,730
just my thing but anyway but you've

1204
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,170
gotta love them they bring so much joy

1205
00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:54,000
and so many valuable teaching

1206
00:46:59,089 --> 00:46:57,390
opportunities at the moment then I'm

1207
00:47:01,040 --> 00:46:59,099
actually researching ear candles and I'm

1208
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:01,050
just astounded as to how completely

1209
00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:04,130
stupid they are but that's another story

1210
00:47:11,780 --> 00:47:07,950
but you know I kind of think again they

1211
00:47:13,310 --> 00:47:11,790
are so stupid it's interesting to talk

1212
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:13,320
about how stupid and it's interesting

1213
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:15,090
just leave my buddy to quote that paper

1214
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:16,650
that actually measured the vacuum and

1215
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:18,900
all that yes but are these really

1216
00:47:22,130 --> 00:47:20,400
accidents or are they throwing

1217
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:22,140
themselves willingly into the roads you

1218
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:24,810
know I just I just don't know and people

1219
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:26,730
who are so stupid that they'll by ear

1220
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:29,310
candles we I think that ear candles will

1221
00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:31,290
be the least of their worries it right

1222
00:47:36,050 --> 00:47:33,680
okay that's a good way of looking at it

1223
00:47:39,020 --> 00:47:36,060
anyway Ben I think we'd better wrap this

1224
00:47:40,780 --> 00:47:39,030
up cool thank you so much thank you so

1225
00:47:43,730 --> 00:47:40,790
much for joining us on the zone today

1226
00:47:45,260 --> 00:47:43,740
that's very good fun as a little present

1227
00:47:47,810 --> 00:47:45,270
we're going to send you a DVD of

1228
00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:47,820
Australian poetry which is done by our

1229
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:50,910
voiceover man Jim will cheer and I hope

1230
00:47:57,140 --> 00:47:53,760
you'll enjoy and also a DVD on how to

1231
00:47:59,690 --> 00:47:57,150
fold origami by Richard Saunders cologne

1232
00:48:01,609 --> 00:47:59,700
really handy hours of fun and also a

1233
00:48:04,099 --> 00:48:01,619
copy of the great skeptic CD from

1234
00:48:06,050 --> 00:48:04,109
Australian skeptics cool anything with

1235
00:48:07,820 --> 00:48:06,060
australian accents no I'm Australian I

1236
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:07,830
mean on paper only obviously in the

1237
00:48:12,140 --> 00:48:09,810
flesh and possibly the most English man

1238
00:48:14,450 --> 00:48:12,150
you've ever met but I have like an

1239
00:48:16,579 --> 00:48:14,460
Australian passport and everything I am

1240
00:48:17,930 --> 00:48:16,589
or XIV a lot yeah and I went to school

1241
00:48:20,210 --> 00:48:17,940
in Perth and stuff and all my family

1242
00:48:22,310 --> 00:48:20,220
living in Australian all right ok i just

1243
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:22,320
put this accent on because i'm desperate

1244
00:48:26,780 --> 00:48:24,780
for approval right well perhaps you

1245
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:26,790
might like to come down in 2010 for the

1246
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:28,920
australian national skeptics conference

1247
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:33,510
been oh yeah gonna be great oh come on

1248
00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:35,839
down mate we'll see you in 2010

1249
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:39,270
excellent that's extremely kind ok ok

1250
00:48:48,589 --> 00:48:42,480
we're cheers thank you very much

1251
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:50,670
thanks for joining me for this week

1252
00:48:55,020 --> 00:48:52,930
skeptics own special we are very

1253
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:55,030
grateful to Ben Goldacre for giving us

1254
00:49:00,839 --> 00:48:58,480
his time two weeks in a row join us next

1255
00:49:03,569 --> 00:49:00,849
week for our regular show where I will

1256
00:49:05,849 --> 00:49:03,579
be back with dr. Rachel reports plus our

1257
00:49:08,819 --> 00:49:05,859
other regular segments the roundup grain

1258
00:49:12,599 --> 00:49:08,829
of salt the think tank plus Richard and

1259
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:12,609
Stefan return until next time this has

1260
00:49:20,250 --> 00:49:14,890
been dr. H II saying goodbye from the

1261
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:20,260
skeptic zone you've been listening to

1262
00:49:27,180 --> 00:49:23,250
the skeptic zone visit our website at

1263
00:49:32,009 --> 00:49:27,190
wwc a petting zoo TV for comments

1264
00:49:32,019 --> 00:49:36,190
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